The world is getting smaller. Or at least it seems that way. We live in a country where cultural, ethnic and religious diversity is steadily increasing. This creates a great deal of anxiety for many Christians. How can we be true to ourselves as followers of Jesus Christ and, at the same time, relate with openness, understanding and compassion to others who believe and live differently? How do we construct a society that allows us to hold strong convictions while giving others the prerogative to do the same?

To live in today's society, we must learn to engage with people from different religions, cultures and backgrounds, and find ways to live together. Without sacrificing our beliefs or identity, we can learn to respond positively to diversity.

In these two interviews, Major Jim Champ, editor-in-chief, and Geoff Moulton, assistant editor-in-chief, dialogue with a Jewish rabbi and a Muslim imam in a spirit of respect and openness. It's an opportunity to explore the similarities between Christianity and other monotheistic faith traditions, without glossing over the differences. These interviews allow religious leaders to share their faith in their own words. It's a first step in opening an interfaith dialogue that will enrich our understanding of our neighbours and ourselves.

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Rabbi Roy Tanenbaum has spent 40 years in the rabbinate. Active in interfaith dialogue, he's served as chair of the Canadian Council of Christians and Jews in Alberta Region and on the Christian-Jewish Dialogue of Toronto. He represented the Canadian Jewish Congress on the Canadian Christian-Jewish Consultation that is composed of leadership of the various churches and synagogues throughout Canada. Rabbi Tanenbaum was also Jewish representative to the United Church of Canada in the development of their Bearing Faithful Witness document, which deals with the relations between the United Church and the Jewish community, as well as the Roman Catholic Bishops' statement on Jewish-Christian relations.



Geoff Moulton: Rabbi Tanenbaum, what is one thing that you want people of other faiths (or no faith) to better understand about your faith tradition?

Rabbi Roy Tanenbaum: Judaism comes to the world from the point of view of activism, and there's a similarity with The Salvation Army in this sense. We have a sense of “commanded-ness” from God, and these commandments influence how we live and engage in the world. We don't begin with the proposition that the world imposes itself on us and we have to adjust to it. We begin with the proposition that there's a role for Jews and humanity to play in making this a better world and that God calls us from beyond our own individual viewpoints to a universal, God-centred view of humanity.

Major Jim Champ: It is similar for Christians in that God calls us to live in community. From a Salvation Army perspective, there's a deep-rooted conviction that we're not called to live for ourselves but to live in community with each other and with God.

Tanenbaum: Everyone can pray, and you can pray in a sanctuary, in your home or even on the golf course (I've heard some of those prayers!). But Judaism tells us that it's best to pray in a group. You need a minyan as we call it, a minimum of 10 people. When I pray by myself, I can pray fast or slow, I can choose one melody over another. But prayer in a group helps us understand that God wants us to learn how to compromise, to make a community. I must ameliorate my own preferences for style, mode and content. It changes my whole perspective. Maybe I'm forced to pray with somebody I don't like that much, but I realize he prays to the same God that I do. I must acknowledge that there is something more than my individual petition or spirituality.

Champ: How challenging is it to pray with people of other faiths, be it Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Christian?

Tanenbaum: When I have a service in my synagogue, I believe any Christian can come into that service and say, “Amen,” to every single prayer. There may be some things that Christians would feel are missing, for example we wouldn't be talking about Jesus or addressing our prayers through Jesus, but there isn't anything in the Jewish liturgy that would startle a Christian. It doesn't, however, work the other way. When I walk into a church—and I'm in churches a lot because of the interfaith work that I do—I have to look ahead to see what is being said. I don't like to start a prayer and then say, “Whoops, I can't finish that.” There is a lack of parity in that sense. If I can't pray, then I just sit there respectfully. Much Christian liturgy is based on the Psalms and the Hebrew Bible, so I don't find it strange. When I walk into a church, I don't expect them to change, but when there's an interfaith service, I appreciate when everybody works together to create a service that we can all address to God in the same way and all are able to say, “Amen.”

Champ: I agree. Our roots are firmly in Judaism, but it's impossible to separate Christianity from Jesus. For us, he is the central figure. Our understanding of Scripture is that Jesus is the Messiah and part of God's greater plan to redeem humanity. What is your tradition, and what do you anticipate? Do Jews still await the Messiah?

Tanenbaum: The role that Jesus plays in Christianity is comparable to the role that Torah plays in Jewish theology. Christians believe God gave his only begotten Son, Jesus, to the world, to bring about the salvation of each individual. In the same way, Jews believe God gave his only begotten Torah, through which, properly applied, we can bring about redemption of the world.

Now, you might have picked up that I have used two synonyms, “salvation” and “redemption,” and if one were to look them up in the dictionary they would probably overlap. But I use salvation when I'm talking about the individual and I use redemption when I'm talking about community and the world. That focuses on your question. In Judaism, the moshiach (Messiah) is going to bring about redemption. It's clear to all of us, Christian and Jew alike, that redemption hasn't yet occurred. The world is still divided by bitterness, warfare, poverty and all kinds of situations that we haven't learned yet how to master, and that we're still working on. The world is far from redeemed, and that's our standard for Messiah.

Moulton: There's a strong emphasis in Christian teaching on individual salvation. However, I think there's been a shift in Christian thinking back toward the communal aspect of redemption. One of the things that has precipitated this is the focus on the environment, ecology, earth-care, and so forth, recognizing that we're part of something greater than ourselves. There is a renewed sense that Christ is coming again to redeem the whole of creation.

Tanenbaum: We have a concept in Judaism that's called tikkun olam, “repairing the world.” It means that the world isn't perfect the way that it comes to us, and that we are in partnership with the Divine in the continuing process of creation. Rather than look at creation as something that happened—and God gave the world a slap and it started to spin—we believe that every day creation is renewed. Therefore, we have a role to play within creation, and that what we call “progress” is God-ordained. We have to muddle our way through, much like we muddle our way through parenting and other aspects of our lives, because we don't know the end result. But every day we must struggle to improve. If you walk into a cemetery and see a whole line of granite stones, each one has a name and two dates: a birth and a death. But it's the dash in between the two dates that's the significant piece. Is the world better because this person was here? Of course, I don't think it's only up to what we humans do. That's why, in the end, we need Messiah. We can take it up so far, but we still need that divine assistance. The difference between us and Christians is we believe that the Messiah hasn't arrived yet. You are waiting for the Second Coming, we are waiting for the first.

Moulton: In the Christian Church we struggle with the pressures of secularization, the clash of values with the world, negative media attention and the loss of young people. Do you face similar issues?

Tanenbaum: We're all in the same boat. Nobody can say he has his finger in the dam because the water is seeping through all over the place. I would argue that religion still seems strongest in North America. There are more believers and activity in churches and synagogues here than most other places. We bemoan the fact that we're in dire straights, but if you go to Europe or other places in the Western world, you'll see a lot more secularization, and faith groups are a lot more defensive. When we realize that religion is not spread by force but by teaching, talking and appealing to the mind and heart, then we're going to be successful.

Moulton: Our faith is often shaped by our understanding of God. What would you characterize as the greatest attributes of God and how do these influence the way you live?

Tanenbaum: God manages to do something that we don't know how to do. God is the source of justice and the source of mercy. We don't know how to put those two things together very well. And so we struggle every day to get the right balance, and we're never sure that we have the right balance. But we know that we need that balance. To me, that's what the prophet Jonah is all about. Jonah is told to go bring a message that in 40 days Nineveh will be overthrown. Jonah doesn't want to go, not because he doesn't want to fulfil the mission, but because he's worried God won't carry it out. He's looking for a world of justice, and he's too much afraid that God is a God of mercy. Sure enough, when the Ninevites repent, and it doesn't happen, he wants to take his life. God says, “Why do you want to take your life?” And Jonah replies that the world didn't play out the way he thought it should. The moment called for justice and God gave mercy. So, it's not right. And then God makes this whole demonstration with the gourd that grows up in one day and disappears the next, and causes Jonah anguish. Then God makes the point that the world, too, requires mercy. Well, we're still working on that. We like mercy for ourselves and justice for the other guy. But we have to get it together.

God is the source of justice and the source of mercy. We don't know how to put those two things together very well

Champ: It's similar for Christians, when we think of Jesus' teaching to forgive not just seven times but 70 times seven. We have this tension between a just God and a God of grace. Do you see any other parallels between the three monothestic faiths: Judaism, Christianity and Islam?

Tanenbaum: Yes, all three are very similar. And I think that it's the similarity that gives rise to the pain and hatreds. What I'm really saying is that much of our animosity is born in love, it's born in likeness. In my personal counselling, in my own congregants, I'm frequently confronted with families that hold long-standing grudges. They can't even remember what caused the problem, but no one will take the first step of forgiveness. I ask myself, where does all this come from? You can see it in world affairs, too. The most bitter polemic is not between somebody on the right and somebody on the left, but between two groups on the right or two groups on the left. That's where they really go for the jugular.

I think the same thing is true in the history of religious relationships. It's the close religions that really go tooth-and-nail, just like family disputes. If somebody down the block does something that I don't like, well, it rolls off my back like water off of a duck. But if my own brother or sister does something that irritates, it's an abomination. Why? Because this person grew up in the same house, they nursed on the same milk, they have the same values—how could they? Relations between Christians, Jews and Muslims run the same risk. It's because we're so close that there is opportunity for real hurt and damage.

Moulton: Practically speaking, what are some ways that we can encourage people from different faith traditions to get along?

Tanenbaum: Two ways. I think that what we're doing here is good. Dialogue is important, but I think that we can also do things together. We need to find opportunities to work side by side on matters of social justice. Our synagogue has been involved in house-building with Habitat for Humanity, which is basically a Christian organization, as well as with the Out of the Cold program for the homeless. That doesn't change who I am. Individuals can do this out of their Jewishness, out of their Christianity and out of their commitment to Islam. I think this kind of co-operation is crucial.

Champ: Which brings us back full circle to our strong sense of community. In The Salvation Army, we have the motto “Heart to God, Hand to Man.” You cannot love God and not help your neighbour. For us, faith is really love in action, which knows no boundary in terms of race or ethnic creed. If people are in need then we try to help them, and we believe it's our responsibility and privilege to do so.

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Imam Abdul Hai Patel has been serving as imam and community leader for 39 years in Canada. He is director of interfaith relations for the Canadian Council of Imams. He is president of the Ontario Multifaith Council, served as a Commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission from 1999-2005, and is a Muslim chaplain at the University of Toronto and with York Regional Police. He is director of Ansaar Foundation's project for addressing poverty and homelessness in Toronto and the founder and member of several interfaith groups.



Geoff Moulton: Imam Patel, what do you want people of other faiths to better understand about your faith tradition?

Imam Adbul Patel: The challenge in any society is for people to truly know one another. A lot of misunderstanding can be removed through education. In the post 9-11 period, this is especially important. After 9-11, for the first time people started looking at things and asking, “Who is my neighbour? If it's a Muslim, do I feel threatened by this presence?” The same thing happened during the blackout situation in 2003, although there was less suspicion and more eagerness to help. People were in darkness and they reached out to their neighbours, asking, “Does anyone need help?” Both events caused people to look beyond their own lives, but the reactions were very different. We need to reach out with trust and openness, not suspicion.

Major Jim Champ: Do you feel we're making progress?

Patel: In Canada we have made a lot of progress. We're ahead of many countries. Recently, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair came to Canada to mobilize the interfaith community to combat malaria in Africa. Canadian faith leaders have been coming together for a number of years in different forums, and especially in the post 9-11 period there have been many interfaith activities. It's only in Canada, I say with pride, that we can recite each others' Scriptures in different places of worship. I've recited the Qur'an in Hindu temples, synagogues and Sikh gurdwaras. The beauty of Canada is that we have such an openness of understanding. But we still have a long way to go to remove a lot of misunderstandings that exist among the faith communities.

Champ: What do you think is the most misunderstood part of Islam?

Patel: It varies from time to time. Before 9-11, many people believed polygamy was compulsory for Muslims. That was a misunderstanding. And there were other stereotypes, such as women have no rights. In the post 9-11 period, people started associating Islam with violence and thinking that every Muslim is a terrorist. But the word Islam means “peace,” and a Muslim greeting is Salaam alaykum, “peace be with you.” How can a religion that means peace be exhorting people to violence? The Qur'an is very clear on this divine intention. It says that whoever kills one human being, it is as if he or she has killed the whole of humanity, and whoever saves one person, it is as if he or she has saved the whole of humanity. There is no religious basis for committing violence of this nature, these acts of terrorism.

Champ: There is a lot of fear when people don't understand.

Patel: That's right. The fear comes from different angles. There is the fear of having another tradition imposed on me, the fear of losing my own tradition. If we learn to accept the cultural differences then we can accept the faith differences as well. Canada is the most multicultural country in the world at the moment. People from all parts of the world have been accepted here.

Moulton: Is it fair to say that when any faith—Christian, Muslim or Jewish—becomes radicalized, there's a danger of violence, prejudice and backlash? What do you say to your people to assure or encourage them in such a climate?

Patel: It's a challenge for any faith leader to show their people that, yes, they are safe in this country, that there is nothing to fear, that they won't lose their identity. We just need to share our heritage, knowledge and faith with others so that people understand. Education can only happen by interacting with others.

Champ: What challenges are your young people facing in terms of maintaining their faith and their identity in the Muslim community?

Patel: The Muslim community here is not homogeneous. We have people from all different parts of the world, such as from Pacific Rim countries, the Middle East, former Soviet Republics, Africa, the Caribbean islands and South America. We have such a diversity and a lot of culture is embedded in people's faith and practices. Identity is a big challenge. A number of young people live with a dual identity. They think that for them to be accepted among their friends, they have to be one of them. There is peer pressure. So they could be Mohammed at home and “Moe” outside. Or Miriam at home and “Mary” outside. They live two lives.

This highlights the importance of education. Much of the teaching happens in the home. I was part of the group that organized the first children's Islamic after-school education classes in Toronto. But most Muslim children go to public schools and grow up with a mixed identity. We don't have Islamic private schools like the Jewish or Christian communities.

Champ: By setting up special cultural schools, I guess every faith tradition has its own segregated system whereby it teaches and passes on its values. Do you feel that there is a clash with your values within the public education system?

Patel: There is, and because Christianity has been the dominant faith in Canada, many Muslim parents feel that their values are neutralized in the school system. That's why some want to have their own schools. Practices such as singing Christmas carols or celebrating Halloween do not mesh with our beliefs. There is a clash of values, but it's also the drug culture, the rock music culture and the gang culture in the school system—these are things to be feared more than anything else.

Champ: As Christian parents we share those concerns. How important is it for people from different faith backgrounds to build relationships with each other? What are ways that you see this happening?

Patel: My children and other children are educated side by side at schools, universities and colleges, and they know more about their friends' traditions than their parents do. For example, there was a time when people didn't know what halal was. Now many young people have learned from their friends that halal is ritually slaughtered meat. Even in workplaces, people know each other's traditions much more than before, so women who wear a hijab are now commonplace.

Champ: You've talked about the opportunity to pray in different forums and to share your faith more widely. How do people from different religious backgrounds participate together in the community?

Patel: There's more reaching out to other communities nowadays. For example, when Pope John Paul II came to Toronto for World Youth Day in 2002, I represented the Muslim community on the organizing committee. For the first time, the Muslim-Catholic dialogue was part of the World Youth Day program. One hundred and fifty Catholic youth from around the world and 150 Muslim youth from the Toronto area participated in interfaith dialogue. As well, Muslim communities opened their homes and places of worship to house many delegates.

Recently, we made joint representation with the Jewish community to the House of Commons committee on matters affecting our faith, such as ritual slaughter and circumcision, so we have worked together on different aspects. The former Anglican archbishop, Terry Finlay, is a good friend of mine, and we walked together on University Avenue the day after 9-11 after attending a memorial service at the University of Toronto.

At street-level, some of the local mosques have programs and relationships with local churches and other places of worship. Neighbours build relations on their own initiative. They know each other's traditions, celebrate together, so that goes on and that's all undocumented.

Champ: The roots of the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faiths can be traced back to Abraham. There are parallels that exist between our sacred writings. Of course there are distinct differences, but there is a lot of synergy in what we believe.

Patel: Yes, this is what we build our relations on, our commonalities. Abrahamic faiths have the same origin, and many Muslims accept the Bible and Torah as divinely revealed books as well. We have a common tradition of beliefs, but there are differences, no doubt about it. Those differences have been there for many years, but increasingly we are willing to acknowledge that we are all human beings and we must learn to live together. Whereas before we were uncomfortable sitting with each other, we now come together in the name of humanity. And if we can promote human values, that is part of the faith values as well.

Abrahamic faiths have the same origin, and many Muslims accept the Bible and Torah as divinely revealed books as well. We have a common tradition of beliefs, but there are differences, no doubt about it

Moulton: What role does prayer play in your faith tradition? How is it distinct?

Patel: Prayer is a way of life in Islam. Everything you do is worship. That means earning a living is worship, playing a role as a father or husband is worship, even removing obstacles from the road for people to pass is an act of worship. But then there is ritual worship as well. We are required to pray five times a day, fast one month in a year from dawn to dusk, give compulsory charity and make the pilgrimage to Mecca if possible. The other act of worship is your interpersonal relations, which is observing the rights of your fellow human beings. Your moral conduct must conform to the divine principles—that includes dietary regulations, dress code, behaviour, respect for elders, and so on.

Champ: As Christians, we also view the way that we live and the things that we do as part of our service to God. We do not separate Sunday, our day of worship, with what happens Monday through Saturday. There is a need for our actions to match our words.

Moulton: What does salvation or redemption mean in terms of the Islamic faith?

Patel: Salvation and redemption—what Muslim life revolves around—is that you are here temporarily and you are going to die and meet God again through resurrection. There is an afterlife where you will be accountable for your deeds, good or bad. Your good acts in this world erase your bad acts, so you redeem yourself by doing good things and, at the same time, by confession to God and repentance. There is heaven and hell in the hereafter, and we will all be accountable to God on the day of judgment. Salvation depends on whether you have faith in God, number one, then on whether you have done good deeds, worshipped well and lived your life properly.

Moulton: Does that ever precipitate an anxiety or fear among some Muslims who may wonder, “Have I done enough?”

Patel: Yes, often the question is posed, “Am I ready to meet God?” I must try to live a pure life that is acceptable to God. We hope and trust in God's mercy.

Champ: In the Christian faith, we believe in a God of grace. For us, there aren't enough good works in the world to earn one's way into Heaven. But there is a sense in Islam in which you also live a life of faith. What is the end result? Is there a distinct Muslim eschatology?

Patel: Yes, the world will come to an end when there is no one left who believes in God. God will not destroy the world as long as there is one believer. In the affairs of this world there is injustice, rampant chaos, confusion, no law and order. God will bring all that evil to an end, but nobody knows when that end will come.

Moulton: Christians, too, anticipate a resurrection, based on Christ's atoning work. How does your understanding of God impact the way you live in the here and now?

Patel: We believe that God has 99 attributes, everything from sustainer to merciful to manager of the world. God is a unique being, which is why the word Allah is used, because it is genderless. God is neither male nor female. The Qur'an tells how God created us into different nations and tribes so we may know one another. God wants us to co-exist. That includes sharing resources, sharing space, respecting the environment, looking after each other, social justice. For example, through our Ansaar Foundation we have worked closely with The Salvation Army's Maxwell Meighen Centre and other Toronto shelters, volunteering with the homeless on a regular basis. It's just another opportunity for our faiths to work together.