I sat in a restaurant with two Christian friends. Each of us belonged to a different church, a different denomination. As school board trustees we respected one another's opinions and views. We did not have to agree on everything to enjoy good company and genuine fellowship.

When the waitress asked us if we wanted drinks, my reverend Anglican friend said, “White wine.” My doctored United Church colleague said, “Red wine.” They both looked at me as I paused and said rather dryly, “Black Coke.”

The table erupted with laughter. Even the waitress joined in, even though I'm not sure that she understood the full impact of my statement. But my two colleagues certainly did. They knew I was a Salvation Army officer and they knew the Army's stand on alcohol. As leaders in their own denominations, they not only understood my position, they respected it.

Why then are there among us Salvationists who want to introduce social drinking to the Army? Could it be that they are not as learned as my Anglican and United Church friends? Could it be that they have less respect and appreciation for the Army's stand than do members of other denominations?

It has been proposed, even by some Salvationists, that the words “I will abstain from alcoholic drink” be removed from the Soldier's Covenant. After all, they say, you can still be a good Christian and take a social drink. They sarcastically argue that if Jesus were here even he would not qualify to be a Salvationist because he was known on occasion to drink wine. Perhaps people who argue this way have a carnal fascination for the forbidden. Perhaps they are just plain ignorant.

Since the opposite of ignorance is knowledge, let us remind ourselves that alcohol is a drug.

It can affect every organ in the human body—brain, liver, stomach and heart. Behaviour that occurs “under the influence” of alcohol can also lead to serious threats to life and health. Although not an illegal substance, it carries all the risks of addiction and illness that street drugs do.

With all due respect to C.S. Lewis and other imbibing Christians, I believe that because alcohol is such a powerful drug, abstinence is more prudent than indulgence.

Secondly, removing the words “alcoholic drink” from the Soldier's Covenant would force us to remove a whole lot more as well. If I cannot say “I will abstain from alcoholic drink,” neither can I say “I will abstain from the non-medical use of addictive drugs” because alcohol, by definition, is a drug. Similarly, neither can I say “I will abstain from all else that could enslave the body or spirit” because alcohol is an addictive substance that enslaves tens of thousands daily.

But most important is the fact that if I cannot promise “I will abstain from alcoholic drink,” neither can I promise “I will be faithful to the purposes for which God raised up The Salvation Army.” William Booth found his calling outside the Blind Beggar, a tavern in the infamous East End of London, England. The special task that God gave the Army was to minister to the victims of alcohol who, because of their dependency, were reduced to poverty, bringing their spouses and children down with them. As Salvationists, part of our calling is to stand in solidarity with those who are addicted to alcohol. And the only way to do this is through abstinence.

As to whether Jesus would qualify to be a Salvationist, I would point out that the only instance of Jesus “drinking” is at the Passover Feast, which we call the Last Supper. And that one cup was shared among 13 men—hardly a social drink. He'd definitely qualify. Besides, since God raised up the Army, I think his Son would be proud to march in our ranks.

Soda, anyone?

fred_ashMajor Fred Ash is the corps officer at Burlington Community Church, Ont.

Comment

On Thursday, May 2, 2024, Joe said:

Was it a caffeine free coke zero? Is not caffeine a drug also. I am lead to believe you will offer up a cup of coffee to someone, but look down if they have a "drink".

On Tuesday, May 10, 2022, Desmay Amohanga said:

I would like to know why soldiers can not move up in ranks after proving their commitment to God . Soldiers who are saved to serve . Before this they were in sin . They were alcoholics and drug addicts with a criminal background history . Now after becoming a soldier they are very qualified and experienced to move up in rank but are not allowed . Weren't we all born into sin . Adam and Eve first sinned then you had those from the Bible. God forgave them why aren't we being treated the same .Is this not discrimination. I am dumbfounded please explain thankyou

On Friday, September 24, 2021, Karl Leach said:

Just to throw a real spanner in the works here, I stopped being a soldier many years ago because I decided to live my life as gay man, and I knew that, that would imperil my relationships within the corps and would mean having to take off my uniform, losing all my section commissions at the same time. It was like a death, and one that took a very long time to recover from.

I have always loved the Army and I still do, and it is the only place I can ever see myself going to worship. Thank goodness is everywhere and I can commune with Him when I am walking the dog, or looking at the sea from my bedroom window, or being rocked gently to sleep by the sound of the waves.

Leaving the Army in the manner I did caused me not to stray, but indeed to run in the opposite direction from the path I had been walking. I drank alcohol and smoked (both most likely in excess), even to managing various drinking establishments. First hand I have seen the devastating results of allowing a social drink to go too far, a person getting drunk and then finding themself in a foreign country, in real difficulty, barely able to speak their own language let alone use a second one. Combine this with the heady temptation of other substances, and literally the doors of Hell can be opened here on earth. All in the name of having a good time on holiday. It strikes me as a somewhat Victorian yet steady mainstay of the organisation that many want to bash.

I felt that the results of my own decision were harsh and they were very difficult to bear, but I would not think of bashing the Army over it. I don't suppose in my lifetime I will ever be a soldier or wear the uniform again, whom but God knows? What changes would need to brought to bear for that to happen?

Now to my point: This relates to the crazy notion that it is the Army's stand on Alcohol and tobacco and it's appearance in the AOW that are causing the decline. I would strongly disagree.

I have been watching various videos and the occasional meeting online recently, and I am disheartened for the Army. It used to be unique and instantly recognizable, with an undeniable part in society. Now it seems that it is losing the uniform, piece by piece; more music from outside the Army is being used in meetings, almost to the point that the Army is indistinguishable from any other denomination. I think that the 'modernization' if that is the right word, is the problem that the army is facing today. From the outside (coming from a former soldier) the Army looks watered down. Taking away the alcohol, tobacco and other substances that might enslave the body references from the AOW will only dilute it further.

I would like to add at this juncture that over the last few years I took the decision to stop drinking and smoking, and I have been 100% successful.

For those wanting to remove it, I would urge them to think again. To those expecting the Army to have added that article based on scripture, that shows a lack of understanding as to where the article came from and why it was added.

Why dry a man out Monday through Saturday and then give him communion wine on Sunday to send him straight back to where he started from. Lunacy!! not to mention expensive. Is it not better then to ask that same to stay away from the very thing that is causing him so much harm? Couple this with the issue of how can I tell a man abstinence is the only way forward if I cannot lead by example?

I fear that removing the offending article will undermine much of the God led work that the Army does, with substance abusers and their affected families.

How can I remove the speck of wood from eye when I cannot see around the plank in my own?

A long time ago I heard a prophecy for the Army, that said quite simply that the Army would start to include the church in it's name; all but lose the uniform and drop in number to insignificant levels. The prophecy went on to say that it would continue like this for a number of years and one day the Holy Spirit will anoint the Army anew and raise it up once again to return to the front lines.

I implore everyone to stop trying to make the Army socially acceptable. That might make it more attractive to some people but overall will only make it weak.

I pray for the rising up of the Army to happen quickly.

God bless to everyone that takes the time to read this thread. It has certainly been an interesting morning for me.

On Thursday, March 24, 2016, Robert Overall said:

In 1964 a Junior Soldier of the Salvation Army shared the gospel of Jesus Christ with me.

That gospel inspired me to believe on the name of and to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not long afterwards, the Junior Soldier had introduced me to the late Captain Bruce Harcourt who had a most profound influence on my willingness to live a life of faith that is most pleasing to God through Christ Jesus.

By the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, I am forever indebted to the Salvation Army for being there for me at a time in my early years when I was desperate to find the wonderful hope, comfort, and peace that came to me as a result of having believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, through members of the Salvation Army.

The Salvation Army has always had a very special place in my heart and always will.

On Monday, March 21, 2016, Craig Dawson said:

I am a one time Salvationists who has returned to the fold after a long absence and I have say I enjoy a drink on occasion. I have recently been asked to become an adherent since my wife and I have adopted the corps where I grew up as our church. I am seriously considering it. I I had and still have lots of friends there and it feels like home..but I am not ready to fully commit as a soldier again...which is why being an adherent is interesting to me...it means I can use the arm as my church and not give up my weekly tipple. I love the army and all it stands for....and if being an adherent is the way that I can give back what it gave me...I will do it.
PS...soda contains caffeine...caffeine is a drug ..

On Thursday, August 14, 2014, Carlos Galvez said:

Thanks Major Ash, you brought up a good point to see what is happening in Christ Church. I agree with must of Capt. Lublink, but when we bring the word culture we open another can of warms. It is clear that this is a Salvation Army position started with our founder, not base on a biblical commandment, but a God's giving calling to salvationist to live a life style that might not be popular, but if we accepted to sign a covenant with God, is a personal decision. So those who want to do it is because they are convince of God's calling for their life, those who are not convince is because they are not being called. We are one body with different function, and we all are important within. Let's accept where we all are and stop fight against each other and move on to fight against the power of hell that is keep taking more and more people and lets preach the good news, and bring people to the cross.
And if there is a salvationist that is reading this and sleeping into social drink, I exhort you to make up your mind, look inside your heart, do you have the calling? If not step down leave the Army, don't put yourself a yoke that is not Christ, He said His is easy, and HE came to set you free. Blessings to all. Shalom!

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014, William Cottrell said:

It is theological christianity at its best. Everyone has an interpretation of what is right and wrong in the eyes of God. The Salvation Army promotes sobriety and I do not see that as a bad thing. Have Salvationists slipped a drink in here and there? Of course. Are we all sinners? Yes! Do we all fall short? Yes! Do we forgive one another.? I hope so. If we are seeking perfection in humanity then we seek in vain.
May God Bless everyone in our Christian walk.

On Wednesday, February 15, 2012, Capt PR Lublink said:

I don't believe the Salvation Army any longer really bases its practices of abstaining from alcoholic beverages from a biblical perspective. In fact, our movement is one of the last institutions which practices total abstinence from drinking alcohol. Other denominations, including the Pentecostals, Free Methodists, etc, abandoned this practice long ago.

In its historical context, we need to remember that 19th Century England where The Salvation Army originated faced a catastrophic problems with alcohol abuse, a problem which many of the European countries did not face. To this day, it is very culturally relevant to drink alcohol in countries such as France, Germany and Italy - but still frowned upon in Great Britain where drinking is still a problem, again because of culture. It is natural for The Salvation Army to retain this perspective. Bottom line, it is not a biblical issue, it is a cultural issue. If there were serious reasons why drinking alcohol was not permitted in Scriptures, then all Christians of all denominations should not drink. It is one of culture and out of respect for those we serve.

On Wednesday, February 15, 2012, crystal said:

I am a Christain youth worker and I cant understand why you dont drink. OK yes alchol is a power drug/drink but Jesus said take drink do this to remeber me. Also if you dont drink alchol what is the Saly army veiw on Jesus turning water to wine? Please let me know?

On Sunday, January 8, 2012, Christopher said:

Dear Major Ash,

Thanks so much for humility and sincerity. God bless you! And by all means, keep thinking and writing for our Savior :)

On Wednesday, November 30, 2011, Jac said:

I don't think that we should remove the non-drinking thing from the covenant, The issue to me is as fruitless as debating the uniform issue.

However I do agree with Jason that the problem is that Adherents and Soldiers are not treated equally. Adherents in my experience have been treated as second class Salvationists. My view on this won't change until I see real evidence of it.

On Sunday, November 27, 2011, Major Fred Ash said:

To Christopher and all who responded to this article,

Thank you each and every one for your comments. Christopher, no offense taken.
There is one point that I want to clarify. The opening scene in the article described three clergy persons enjoying each other's fellowship. We took different stands on the drinking issue. I did not think any less of them for drinking nor they of me for not drinking. They respected my stand as a Salvationist. Some of you were upset by my use of the word ignorant. Please read carefully. It was not used in an insulting manner but in the proper use of the word meaning "not informed." My clergy friends were informed and understood the Salvation Army stand. It is those who have not informed themselves of the facts that are ignorant of the knowledge. This use of the word is not name calling, as some have suggested. Just as I am ignorant of how to fly a plane, some are ignorant of facts concerning the Army's stand on alcohol.
Again thank you, everyone, for your opinions. God bless you.

On Saturday, November 26, 2011, Capt M ilfred Harper Gds Rtd said:

I would like to take this opportunity, on behalf of Joan & myself in wish you all a very Blessed CHRISTmas and a Blessed New year. I pray that we do well with the kittles campaign. I am a Salvationist, and chaplain with the fire dept. I truly believe that three good things happened, and
they are as follows : {1} Christ our Lord was Born :
{2} Christ our Lord was Crucified :
{3} Christ our Lord Arose.

* It is very important that we are saved, and serving CHRIST , look at the way the world is going,
however we Christians know that the King of Kings is coming back to earth, Thanks be to Jesus Christ.

On Thursday, November 24, 2011, Donald Jefcoat said:

First I want to say the issue Major Ash adresses here is a rather interesting one. First of all you will find no sripture to back up abstinance of alcohol, none. You will find however multiple scriptures promoting alcohol consumption even storage of wine. The abstinance policy in the Salvation Army is completly man made.

As for Addiction studies have shown that its not as much the substance that creates the addiction but the release or lack of releases of Dopomine, Seritonin, and another natural drug our body creates or each one individualy. The line in the AOW adressing alocohol and tobacco also states we need to refrain from other stuff that can enslave us. For some that is shopping, for some it might be extremem sports, Criminal Activity, Speed, Hieghts, conflict, and the list goes on. I think the army need to just state the enslaving part and remove Alcohol and Tobacco Part.

I left the Army as the more I prayed about staying the more the Lord opened my eyes. But the deciding factor was the way my last few officers treated me. In the last corps I was told single people serve families, my gifts mean nothing, Men serve the women, and when I was sick I suffered through alone. I have had officers tell me to not serve my fellow man and attendance over rides ministry. I am sorry to say It will take alot to get me to go back into the Army. One of the things the Army needs to do is pick up the bible and read it, and make adjustments to practice and position to bring them more inline with scriptures.

Even though I am no longer in the ranks the Army still has my prayers.

On Saturday, November 19, 2011, Christopher said:

Dear Major Ash,

I am the Christopher who posted above. Today, I was checking to see if there were a response to my comment, and to see other comments as well. I just realized that I used your name in the example I gave of my good friend, and honestly, I didn't even realize your name was Fred when I had written that. I imagine that this would have been taken offensively, and I wanted to apologize for the misunderstanding.

On Thursday, May 19, 2011, Matt said:

I am a Salvationist and I drink. Deal with it.

On Thursday, December 2, 2010, Christopher said:

Getting drunk is obviously not in line with what the Bible says. Having a social drink is, further than being in a grey area, acceptable at least.

This truth is what led me to think again about the claim of The Salvation Army. I've been against the use of alcohol for social purposes or family purposes my whole life. Today, I state on behalf of Biblical evidence that it is okay to have a social beer or wine in the company of people that will keep you from disobeying the Scriptures. For instance, the Bible says "do not be a stumbling block." In light of this, I hold that it is a sin to socially drink with an alcohol addicted person.

Again, to drink wine with my wife on our anniversary will not spark conviction. Now, the conviction which would keep me from doing that is the Soldier covenant that I have signed.

My best friend, I will call him Fred, has grown up in a family situation vastly different than mine. I'm an officer's kid, so the only knowledge of alcohol I grew up with was the destructive results. Fred's family occasionally gave him some beer or wine growing up. In his family, alcohol is nothing out of the ordinary. Also, there is no alcohol addiction in his family. He understands that in excess, alcohol destroys lives.

Today, Fred and I talk about alcohol - both of us in humility - wanting to understand the other's opinion and feeling on it.

As I've wrestled with this question, I found this post. I must tell you, I am embarrassed as a Salvationist to have read your thoughts. Your degrading of people with different opinions is remarkably discouraging and tearing down. Fred has a healthy view and lifestyle which includes alcohol. It bugs me that you have chosen not to acknowledge this type of situation, and have only recognized the extreme cases. One extreme you focused on was how it is not Biblical to be drunk, to lose control. To find balance, we must acknowledge that it is not wrong according to the Bible to drink alcohol - just as caffeine is okay too. The other extreme you focused on is the so called ignorant people who are in opposition to our views. To find a balance here, we must take genuinely and humbly with people who aren't in the same view. You have come across as attacking and strong. There is an effective way of being bold, but attackingly and angrily and ignorantly is the path that you have chosen.

One way I have explained myself for being in agreement with The Salvation Army is acknowledging that drinking alcohol is not a sin. It is wrong to tempt others. It is wrong to lose control to alcohol. One place where I am having difficulty accepting well is the last piece, how it is wrong to drink in excess, but it's okay in wise moderation. It is wrong to be dependent on coffee, smoking, television, alcohol, etc.. why do we turn a blind eye to other things? As a Salvationist who myself is guilty, I acknowledge our faults: many Salvationists are very materialistic, and are addicted to their stuff. Many Salvationists watch TV. Many Salvationists play video games. Would you agree that video game addiction is real? It is wrong. Dependency on television is real. It is wrong.

If I've come across as some ignorant dude, forgive me. Take me seriously and genuinely. Check yourself as you do those who come in opposition to you.

Now, I'll continue to search for an honorable account and approach to this issue. Blessings, dude!

On Monday, March 15, 2010, Jason Locke said:

Mr. Pond:

I think that we would all agree that making healthy dietary choices is in our best interest. But I highly doubt that maintaining a healthy BMI is going to wiggle its way into the next revision of the Junior Soldier Pledge...or Senior Soldier Pledge. Your point has just managed to bring support to the idea that choosing one or two issues to be 'the evil issues' is a bad idea.

On Monday, March 15, 2010, Chris said:

AS I read the article by Major Fred Ash and have read the following comments my heart has became heavy and sad. Once again we talk about a inclusive God with exclusive rules. Why does the drinking issue hold prominance today. We have also agreed via our covenant to abstain from pornography yet within in the global Christian church this is the number one problem with male Christians....where is our voice on this. Our covenant speaks of contribuing with our finances and our time yet our churchs are suffering because the lack of titheing (even in the officer ranks )and people to do ministry.

We invite people to come to a saving grace by the power of Christ and believe that He has the power to transform lives and adopts into the family of God, yet to play an instrument in a commisioned band, to sing in choir, or to hold a local position you need Jesus plus....Jesus plus the right look....Jesus plus the right paper signed...Jesus plus.
The reality is Jesus is enough period.

I am an officer and I am tired. Tired of these discussions when at the end of the day will make no difference in the Kingdom of God.
Social drinkers will be in that Kingdom and I will not be suprised to see alcholics there as well.
How about we back to the heart of Booth which was lined up with the heart of Christ which was simply the lost.
Jesus found Himself in the presence of the rich and the poor, the healthy and the sick, the abstainers and the socil drinkers. He ate, broke bread, shared a cup of wine
Let us not asume that we hold market on Christ.
Let us back to the things that matter in the Kingdom of God

On Sunday, March 14, 2010, Patrick said:

Our founders were not only abstainers, they were pacifists and vegetarians - William Booth was especially vocal on the issue of pacifism and his son Bramwell on the issue of eating meat. They both wish The Salvation Army also would be pacifists and vegetarians - but they were also pragmatists and knew they couldn't their soldiery to support them in these areas. To this day, the Salvation Army remains neutral on both the issue of pacifism and vegetarianism and leaves it up to its members to act according to their conscience.

In my perspective, The Salvation Army needs to reeavaluate its position on social drinking, especially if the Army wishes to penetrate deeper into other cultures, cultures that were not influenced by British Colonalism where drinking was a real problem. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but it is known in other parts of Europe that the British can't hold a drink.

The Army should leave it to their members to act according to their own conscience in the same way its had done it on the issue of vegetarianism, pacifism and - of course - on other issues, such as going to the movies, dancing, etc.

I for one would welcome such a move - in my culture (Belgian/ French) social drinking is not only acceptable but very much expected. I recently met with a fellow officer from the French Territory - he and his wife were the last officers to be commismsioned in that Territory which sadly enough occured all the way back in 1998, no officers have been comissioned since then in the past 12 years - is the topic of social drinking responsable for this? Not entirely, but I do know that my many relatives have often stated to me that they would never join the Salvation Army on these grounds alone.

I for one would welcome a change in this area. I believe that the Army should leave it up to its members to act according to their own conscience.

On Saturday, March 13, 2010, Chris Stephens said:

One poster well noted the inappropriateness of Major Ash calling those who disagree with him "ignorant"; not only should name calling be beneath him, but it sets him up in his own glass house: from herein he cannot afford to be ignorant about anything, lest he be exposed as a hypocrite.

Unfortunately for Major Ash, that exposure comes just a paragraph later when he argues that the Bible offers only one isolated example of Jesus drinking. This is simply untrue. Both Matt 11:19 and Luke 7:34 describe Jesus as the Son of Man who came "eating and drinking." And not just a little bit either, but drinking to the point that his critics were able to call him a "drunkard." Now, surely his critics were exaggerating for the sake of attacking him, but at very least it does show that Jesus' drinking was not isolated nor insignificant. Further to this, Jesus' production and provision of wine at the Cana wedding for people who had already had much to drink (John 2:1ff) offers further confirmation of the one single inconvenient but undeniable fact that Salvationists like Major Ash wish weren't true: Jesus supported social drinking. And for as long as Salvationists insist on differing with Jesus on this matter, they will be, in all senses of the phrase, out of step with Jesus.

Another poster said that those who wish to drink should simply leave the Army. That's good advice. I took it. So did many others. In fact, when I grew up there were 5 SA corps within an hour's drive of my house, and now only 1 of those remains. For goodness sake, they even had to sell the montreal citadel! Nevermind all the camps that have been closed down and sold. The army is in a massive decline. Am I saying that is all because they don't support social drinking? No, not at all. I am saying though that the two are connected. In continuing to oppose social drinking the Army continues to be out of step with Jesus. Christians are, by very definition, those who make following Christ the single most important thing, more important than any other argument or rationalization. Social drinking is just an example of a broader problem within the army: an addiction to manmade tradition and made up arguments and rationalizations that supersedes a dedication to following Christ. Fewer and fewer people in general society are being drawn to Christianity these days, and those that are will not stay with an organization that values human traditions over following Christ. Not when there's other Christian groups out there to choose from.

On Friday, March 12, 2010, Keith Pond said:

Major Ash's viewpoint has merit and the medical evidence is compelling with respect to smoking and the abuse of alcohol.

However, as, or more serious I believe is the problem of obesity, not only in our country but within Christian congregations.The Salvation Army is no exception.

While there may be overriding medical reasons in some instances for being overweight, for many it is a lack of discipline and knowledge in the area of nutrition, along with a sedentary lifestyle.

The consequences of obesity and being overweight are many and include, to name just a few, diabetes and cardiovascular disease, which is the # 1 financial burden on the Canadian health care system.

A disciplined,Christian life includes honoring our bodies-the temple of God.This should incorporate a reasonsable body mass index.

On Thursday, March 11, 2010, Jason Locke said:

Rob

Your point would be well-taken if adherents and soldiers received the same treatment and benefits in the church - - but we all know they don't. Soldiers may be local officers, play in the band, sing in the songsters, be pastors...adherents may not do these (with some exceptions where a need exists and the rule is deemed to be more harmful than helpful for the community).

Quoting Rob
"Are you honestly saying that because a soldier endeavours to abstain from intoxicating drink in solidarity with the millions around the world who struggle with alcohol that he/she is wrong?"

No. In fact I explained above that this is a noble and worthy decision.

However, while many people stay far away from cosmetic piety, it cannot be ignored in the ranks of our churches (all churches...not just Salvation Army Churches). By making unnecessary rules whose agreement with include, or disagreement with exclude, the Salvation Army simply adds to the problem of cosmetic piety for those who want to, say, sing in the songsters and drink wine with dinner (especially those who are 'born into' the culture and feel that they don't want to leave it!).

Of course I recognize that Salvationism is far more than the topic of drinking, but since this article is about drinking and how "Abstinence from alcohol makes the heart grow stronger", I assume that centering the conversation here makes plenty of sense. I think that disagreement and conversation is sharpening and effects us for the positive. I would be interested in continuing the dialogue here.

Grace to you, and Peace,
Jason Locke

On Thursday, March 11, 2010, William Russell Jenkins said:

If you want to drink, don't join The Salvation Army. The very heart of the Army is helping those who have fallen victim to drugs, find a better way to live through Christ Jesus our Lord. I know for a fact we could not minister to the people we do, if we allowed alcohol in our ranks.. I spent twenty + yrs addicted to all drugs and alcohol is the worst. Do we need to drink to enjoy each others company, NO! I pray to God that the commitments to abstain are NEVER taken off the oath, because I for one will have to leave if it happens. The Army as we know it will cease to exist and satan will have entered our ranks! If you want to drink leave the Army.
Thank you!

On Thursday, March 11, 2010, Rob said:

Some of the comments about the Army's stance on alcohol being moralistic and showing more concern for cosmetic piety than true biblical teachings, are quite frankly disappointing, and very judgemental.

Are you honestly saying that because a soldier endeavours to abstain from intoxicating drink in solidarity with the millions around the world who struggle with alcohol that he/she is wrong?

Moreover, the salvation army has a mechanism for those who wish not to take on the soldiers covenant - it's called adherency. Someone who becomes an adherent is free to abstain or not abstain from alochol, smoking, gambling, etc. But for those who wish to take on the vow of soldiership - they are free to do that. Both stances should be respected.

I find it sad to see this division between the "camps". If you wish to drink and be a member in the salvation army - you may. If you wish to become a soldier and not drink, you may. And by the way, soldiership and adherency is so much more than drinking or not drinking - but that is how many of you framed this debate.

If you feel so opposed to our stance on alcohol that we ask our soldiers to commit to then perhaps you should consider finding a church that doesn't ask that of its members. You have the freedom to do that as well. I just don't think that people should denigrate those who abstain from intoxicating drink and see some spirital/physical value in it. Thank you.

On Thursday, March 11, 2010, Jason Locke said:

Thanks Moe.

Your comment so succinctly exposes a MAJOR problem: moralistic teaching in order to get people to 'be a certain way'. God help us if this is actually how some people view the commitments we make to God and each other in the community of faith. I hope and pray that THIS is not at the heart of why most Salvationists have chosen not to drink alcohol, though I fear more people would agree with this than would want to willingly admit it...

The Gospel was never meant to oppress or manipulate people to become the way we want them to be - it was and is, the Good News of Redemption, Reconciliation and Liberation.
1 - I fear that comments like this have placed Salvation Army preferences ahead of clear Biblical principles. Holiness is becoming more and more like Christ - not becoming a better Salvationist (I'm afraid that these two are not interchangeable).
2 - At any rate, abstaining from alcohol is not a step towards holiness for most people (though for some it MAY be, if it is a vice).

Peace,
Jason Locke

On Wednesday, March 10, 2010, Moe said:

Maybe we should learn more about the Mormons and avoid alcohol and any caffeinated drinks to make people better Salvationists.

On Tuesday, March 9, 2010, Robert King said:

Sobering thoughts indeed, but nothing that hasn't been said before ... which is not to say that it doesn't deserve repeating.

First of all, I have a few issues with the article as written. The focus on Alcohol as a drug, for example. It IS a drug to be certain, but as has been mentioned already, so is caffeine. Now, that argument may be much weaker than the coffee I know my officer drinks, so it's not something I would dwell on. But it is a thought. I would challenge every Salvationist to give up coffee and tea (if they drink it) for a week, if for no other reason than to discover who is 'master of their own domain,' so to speak.

Second of all, this article solves no problem. I've read this stuff in the Salvationist, and in the War Cry before it, for years. If we want to eliminate this hypocrisy from our church, our leaders would do well to acknowledge it. In every corps I have been a part of, there are numerous soldiers who drink or even do hard drugs. Some of them don't even bother to keep it a secret. And yet, it continues, and the only 'punishment' that happens is the gossip that floats among the pews: a 'punishment' that only breeds righteous indignation. Even if it is dealt with, by that point, the question becomes 'what are you going to do about the gossipers?'

Thirdly, perhaps we SHOULD reexamine the soldier's covenant with regards to Alcohol. Yes, the army has 'always' (we'll get to that in a second) been abstinent with regards to alcohol, but who's to say Booth had it right to begin with? After all isn't scripture the final word on godly matters? I would never go so far to call teetotalism a 'bad' idea, but is it really the issue that we're going to fight and die over?

Continuing from that point, the 'Army already has permitted drinking in some areas. I have been told (and I could be wrong, but this is my understanding) that in Germany the Soldier's Covenant's proscription of alcohol is ignored, even by officers, and in Italy it doesn't even show up in the articles of war. I'm not personally convinced that alcoholism in Canada has reduced to a place where the Army should seriously consider permitting it here too, but there is a precedent. Let's not pretend that it was also written on a stone tablet by the finger of God. Even if we consider the issue, and decide that we should still keep our Soldiers sober, it's not an offense to admit that we're thinking about it.

And finally, with regards to Jesus qualifying for Soldiership, that is where the article seems to lose all sense. How is the last supper not considered a social drink? It was social, and there was drink. Unless the suggestion is that Jesus brought out the wine as some sort of point-making device, but then why would the point not be made by something else just as well. Beyond that, it ignores the first miracle Jesus ever did: turning vats (VATS. Not thimbles, shot glasses, or even buckets) of water into wine. For free. At a party. And that was AFTER the guests had already drank the wine cellar dry. Don't even talk to me about whether Jesus himself drank. Fact is, he condoned it. 'Worse' than having a sip of wine himself, he enabled a room full of partying people to get drunk out of their heads.

A parting thought: the poor will always be with us. As much work as the 'Army, or any other organization does on behalf of the downtrodden, we will never solve the problem completely. Could that be the reason that Proverbs suggests that the anguished drown their sorrows in liquor? (Proverbs 31: 6-7)

On Tuesday, March 9, 2010, Naomi said:

I am not a Sr.Soldier, but I am 18.
And i believe alcohol is not bad unless it is abused. Just like various other things. People can over indulge in anything, so why is it that we completely divide ourselves from alcohol?
People think that because I'm 18 , the only reason i think drinking is acceptable is because I'm clearly one of those ' bad kids who just wants to get drunk ' . However, I am mature enough to realized that we have limits, and that drinking with respect, is still respecting the bodies that God gave us.
People are worried if i drink, i will ruin my 'reputation'. Why is that? Would they rather have me hide the fact that maybe one day if I am out with my friends i WILL order a drink? What about all those in uniform who we 'admire' yet they are going against what they signed? Where is the fairness in that?

The Salvation Army does so much missions work, we are always helping the less fortunate. But we too are less fortunate, because we no longer know what we stand for. How can we say that the salvation army is a church, when it has lost sight of it's mission? You can't judge a persons relationship with God based on the fact if they drink or not. A person sitting at the back of the church, could have a better relationship with God then the person in uniform. Yes, worshiping and praising with other Christians should help you, but if it's not genuine, or done for the right reasons - then it simply means nothing.

I may not have the strongest relationship with God, every day i am finding out a bit more of who i am, and who i want to be. I just don't think it's fair or right to be belittled because i may not agree with staying away from alcohol.

I understand that so many people suffer with an addiction to it. But to say that everyone who does / drinks / eats something gets addicted - is false.

I love God , and i know that just because I may not agree with the ARMY's view on drinking, doesn't mean God doesn't love me any less, so then why do i feel as though people within my church will? Or at least look at me differently. Or, as this article states i should just feel ' plain ignorant ' because of where i stand.

On Tuesday, March 9, 2010, Major John Gerard said:

To the one who stated William Booth smoked is in error. I have read most of what is in print about WB and not once is it mentioned he smoked. As for the Last Supper issue - which is ever voiced as proof that social drinking is acceptable - we bloody our eyes, and turn from the truth, when millions are enslaved by drink. For years I attended many pubs with the War Cry and found many looking for a way to drown their sorrows. The War Cry spoke to their hearts and many times convicted them of their sinfulness. We must seek purity of heart, steadfastness of Spirit, knowledge in the Word, to do the primary task of winning souls to the Kingdom. Let's get back to the basics.

On Tuesday, March 9, 2010, Robert said:

An issue that hasn't been raised regarding the Army's stand on abstinence has been its historical record of snobbery to those denominations whose members do enjoy a social drink. One of the biggest paradigm shifts in this type of thinking came when I sat across the restaurant table from a person, who I respect as a fellow evangelical and whose spiritual life is much deeper and richer than mine, and watched them order a beer for dinner.

My Army thinking had led me to believe anyone who drank was on the slippery slope to hell and alcoholism. I have since learned otherwise and count among my soulmates many who enjoy a social drink.

I also take exception to Major Ash's statement: "I would point out that the only instance of Jesus 'drinking' is at the Passover Feast, which we call the Last Supper." This is both biblically and historically inaccurate and sets up a straw man argument. You cannot argue that Jesus abstained because the Scriptural record only mentions one instance. As a First Century Jewish man Jesus would have partaken in the primary drink of that time: fermented grape juice - or alcohol. To argue otherwise, without clear biblical evidence, is inaccurate.

On Tuesday, March 9, 2010, mark braye said:

do we believe our first doctrine? no, we can add all the sallyann rules to communities of faith we want. yes, consuming alcohol is not wrong. the abuse of it is.

On Tuesday, March 9, 2010, Jason Locke said:

We would do well in church to have enough gracious space to simply disagree and love each other anyways (both inter-denominationally AND intra-denominationally). Unity does not mean always agreeing.

I don't see why such a peripheral issue should get so much attention. Since we all know that drinking alcohol is NOT a sin, after all Jesus did it (and I'm not being sarcastic), we should have enough grace to meet each other half-way on an issue of personal conviction such as this (though I acknowledge that this is not an easy task in a denomination where people who do partake in drinking are unfortunately often treated as second-rate Christians).

For those who have written here and have chosen NOT to partake in drinking alcohol, I respect you. But I don't think you're a better Christian than my Anglican or United Church friends. I also don't think you're a better Christian than a Salvation Army adherent who chooses to drink. I am simply making space for your personal conviction to be a part of how you express Christianity, on a debatable issue.

I do have respect for the 19-year old above who actually posted a GOOD reason to abstain from drinking - - participating in the work of restoring those who have abused the drug to a place of sobriety. Well done, Brittany. In your youth, you have spoken wisdom.

Grace to you, and peace,
Jason Locke

On Monday, March 8, 2010, Brittany said:

I myself am a senior soldier and have been since I was 14. I am now 19; still very young. I think the Army's standards are commendable and I think it is important for the Army to take it's stand against drinking. Like it was mentioned in the article about the other churches (Anglican and United in this scenario) abstinence from alcohol is not a popular choice and to have this stand when perhaps 98% of other churches do not is important.

It was also mentioned that "I cannot promise “I will abstain from alcoholic drink,” neither can I promise “I will be faithful to the purposes for which God raised up The Salvation Army.”" And then "As Salvationists, part of our calling is to stand in solidarity with those who are addicted to alcohol. And the only way to do this is through abstinence." How then is someone to be faithful to the "purposes for which God raised up The Salvation Army" if they have no contact with alcoholics? How many Salvationists within the Army can say that they are fulfilling God's task for the Army?

"The special task that God gave the Army was to minister to the victims of alcohol who, because of their dependency, were reduced to poverty, bringing their spouses and children down with them." If a Salvationist is in fact doing this special task then I believe wholeheartedly that they should be abstaining from any drug that could enslave the body. And I commend then for their efforts.

For me, the issue remains how many Salvationists are actually a part of this ministry? How many know of the reasons for abstinence? Perhaps there needs to be more of an education on the standards of the Army when entering into Soldier-ship. Perhaps the activities that a Senior Soldier takes part in should be more to the heart of what William Booth set out to do: real street ministry. That's where the heart of the Salvation Army started isn't it?

On Monday, March 8, 2010, kass said:

I too would like to commend Major Ash for this article. I guess I can say that I have experienced part of both worlds, (Social drinking & Abstinence) and I would much prefer the abstinence. I know what social drinking can lead to and I know the damage it can bring on good relationships. It's like Ross said, it's better not to go to the edge of the mountain, it could be so easy to stumble over...I have seen it happen. Sad to say, I came into the Army later in life and it's the standards of the Army that drew me to it and I am so glad that I am now a part of an organization that believes in total abstinence. Every alcolohic (bless their hearts) started with a social drink, and the majority longs to be delivered, so I think Social drinking is not much to give up for the One who gave His all. I think it was Samuel Logan Brengle who said, "If you're in doubt...throw it out". Good advice for social drinking.

On Sunday, March 7, 2010, Kristen said:

I completely agree with this article. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. In a world where young people are being challenged by what they think is right and what Army standards have dictated, information like this is vital. Thank you for giving the insight needed to clarify what the Army stands for and why it chooses to stand for it. Keep it up Major. God Bless!

On Sunday, March 7, 2010, Ross Sturge said:

Re: A Sobering Thought.

Salvationists in large part remind me of the fans of the Toronto Maple Leafs and possibly hockey in general. They have just enough knowledge of the game to be dangerous. For instance, when the General Manager makes a trade, the newspapers and radio talk shows are crammed by so called "fans", who have varying thoughts and opinions as to what they thought of the "trade". When the coach plays a specific line and the team loses, these same fans have better ideas as to who should have played and should not.

Salvationists in small numbers have promoted the idea of social drinking for as long as I can remember. They use things such as obesity, caffeine (pop products in general, not just "black" coke)etc. as grounds for the argument in favour of social drinking. However, it's just their opinion and fortunately as part of living in a democratic society, they are entitled to that opinion.

I believe the vast majority and those with a more grounded belief in the present position will ultimately win out. After all, if you don't want to slip over the edge of a slippery mountain table, don't go out on the edge!

Social drinking, could very well be that slippery edge for the "Army".

For those in our ranks regardless of who they are and feel it necessary to be party to the "social drink", I suggest, honesty, truthfulness and personal integrity would dictate choosing one or the other, you can't straddle the fence and not feel pain evenually.

On Sunday, March 7, 2010, Maureen said:

I must take exception to the comments expressed by Shelley. I have been a soldier in The Salvation Army for over 40 years and in that time I have not had any alcohol or amoked anything. To make a blanket statement that Salvationists do drink or smoke is very dangerous to make. That is similar to saying that all Shelley's swim with sharks. If this is in fact what is happening in your corps I feel it is your obligation to speak to someone about it. If your local officers or corps officers won't do anything then go further up the chain. People are enabled to do the wrong thing by those of us who know what is right do nothing. God bless your endeavour.

Maureen Racz

On Saturday, March 6, 2010, Carol said:

I am concerned with the use of "ignorant" as well. Name calling is so unworthy. We Salvationists spend too much time on issues such as social drinking while neglecting the mission to love and be in love with God and others. We have chosen another form of addiction, I would humbly suggest, with our excessive coffee drinking (caffeine). But again, not of eternal value when it comes to engaging socially and spiritually with others inside and outside our Army tradition. When we share a meal with others I believe our conversation and our genuine, authentic love and care for them should override any focus on what we are eating or drinking.

On Saturday, March 6, 2010, Marie said:

Social drinking is okay. It is when you take that social drink and go beyond is when we start having problems.

On Friday, March 5, 2010, Shelley Howard said:

What bothers me the most about this issue is that Salvationists, in uniform, in bands, including band masters, are drinkers and smokers and they try to hide it and become so disloyal to the organization that takes this kind of stand. Sadly, they get away with it and continue to 'play' the roll.

On Friday, March 5, 2010, Salvationist.ca said:

Hi, Ken. As the editor, I usually refrain from posting comments, but I feel I should respond to your representation of William Booth. As early as 1888, the Army's Founder took issue with the dangers of smoking as can be seen below.

Peace, John McAlister

The Evil of Smoking by General William Booth

1. Is it necessary to warn the children against the common habit of using tobacco?

We think that in view of the widespread prevalence of smoking, especially amongst boys, parents ought to make children understand the enormous evils of this practice. Of course, in Salvationists’ families this may seem unnecessary, seeing that by precept and example the habit will be condemned and avoided by everybody about them. But even here it may be necessary to make children thoroughly conversant with the evil character of the usage. Among other things make your children understand that—

(1.) Eminent medical men say that smoking injures the brain and consequently the entire nervous system. It also affects the lungs, the stomach, and the digestive organs generally, and often injures the eyes very seriously. The earlier the age at which this practice is acquired the more injurious will be its effects.

(2.) The use of tobacco means a shameful waste of money which might be so much better employed.

(3.) Smoking is an unnatural habit. All who have ever practised it know how nature revolts at the commencement of the use of tobacco in any form, whether that of smoking, snuff-taking, or chewing; and has to be compelled at the expense of considerable suffering to allow it.

(4.) Smoking is an unclean practice. It corrupts the breath, poisons the atmosphere, and makes its votary a nuisance in a small way to everybody about him who is not likewise given up to the same selfish indulgence.

General William Booth, 1888, Ch. 28: ‘Tobacco’, The Training of Children, 2nd edn.

On Friday, March 5, 2010, Ken said:

Although I do agree and respect the stand that the ARMY has made toward alcohol consumption. Your claim is based on the fact that you call Alcohol a drug. Is the caffeine in your BLACK COKE not a drug? or the ample amounts of coffee the Salvation Army serves regulary not a drug? Its also funny to me that you choose to quote William Booth for this article. If you sir did proper research you would know that the founder of the Salvation Army often smoked a pipe. Is not tobacco a drug?( by the way Tobacco and caffeine are both addictive). Get your facts straight.

On Friday, March 5, 2010, Gill Crowe said:

I live daily with the effects that alcohol has on lives having tow adopted children who have suffered the effects of foetal alcohol syndrome and whole heartedly agree with this article 100%. I am a Salvationist and if ever the Army introduced drinking I would leave.

On Friday, March 5, 2010, Shawn DeBaar said:

Major Fred Ash,

As a Salvationist, I agree with this article 100%. When people in or out of the Army ask me why I agree with this portion on the covenant I remember the words of one of our local Officers Major Grindle. He always says that there are 24 reasons at Turning Point (Our medical detox/rehab in the division) for him not to drink. He is referring to the clients there as reason enough to abstain from alcohol.

Furthermore, I believe that we have to send a message that Jesus is better than everything, even fleshly desires.

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